In the recent election campaign, a lot of the people running for Parliament were unknown to the population, and tried to compensate by posting placards with their name, picture and slogan on the streets. A fellow blogger wrote about one of the niqabi candidates. Someone responded suggesting that since the only thing we know about most candidates was their picture; we know even less about a niqabi since you can only see her eyes. He further suggested that if elected, anyone could put on a niqab and go to Parliament in her place.
Personally I think the way a candidate looks tells very little about their thoughts and beliefs. Not to mention that parliament isn’t really in power here which makes the whole issue moot. The only part of the commenter’s argument that is valid is that niqabi women are very difficult to identify. I think this also applies (to a lesser extent) to Hijabi women. On expressing this, one hijabi responded telling me: “Grow up! It’s just a piece of cloth!“. I used my mediocre photo-editing skills to setup an animation demonstrating the big difference this “piece of cloth” makes below.
Jennifer Aniston demonstrates face in plain/Hijab/Niqab
I work at a company which hires about 75 employees, approximately 75% men, and 25% Hijabi women. We are constantly hiring new people, and our office seating is project-based which means people (except for my department) don’t have their own desk, but sit and move to different project tables depending which project they are currently working on. While everyone knows the bald fat guy who always wears a black tracksuit (take a guess); aside from the dozen people in my own department, I will often encounter a face I don’t recognize. Naturally, that changes after I work with someone a couple of times. The exception are the Hijabi women; while a few are easily recognizable (one always wears pink, one always wears jeans, and one is overweight). I have difficulty recognizing the others.
Modern "Chic" Hijab
Facial recognition is difficult when most or all of someone’s face is concealed. For the same reason, several countries do not allow any form of face or head cover in passport photos. Case in point, there was a recent news item about a man caught sneaking into a women’s wedding party (the traditional type with separate venues for men and women) by getting dressed in niqab.
Loading ...Assuming a woman is wearing hijab or niqab of her own choice, and for religious reasons, it is much more than a piece of cloth. In effect, it Identifies her as a practicing Muslim (امرأة صالحة), and coupled with the other rules about not wearing anything tight fitting, or exposing, it is also designed to minimize her femininity. The idea being that she will be treated with more respect (at least by men) if she is less feminine. Why can’t some men treat a woman with respect even with her femininity in tact ? High heels and a knee length skirt do not necessarily mean a woman is promiscuous.
Recently a regular reader wrote a comment including the phrase (I am religious). When I responded saying she didn’t seem to be very religious stipulating that I suggest this based on 2 previous comments one indicating she doesn’t wear hijab, and the second recounting difficulty she had walking down cobbled streets wearing Stiletto high heels (thin heel higher than standard pumps and named after a dagger). She exploded with self righteous indignation telling me that in some Arab countries prostitutes wear hijab, that her religiosity is between her and God, that I’m being judgmental, and that I seem to think I’m perfect, and that she is very very very disappointed, and then proceeded to take back every nice thing she ever said.
Stiletto Heel Pump
It is true some prostitutes wear hijab in Arab countries but only because it offers them a level of anonymity they wouldn’t otherwise have. Even an atheist such as myself knows the prostitute’s actions does not change the Muslim concept of ‘Awra (عورة) specifying that it is not optional for men or women to display certain body parts in public. As this is a very basic rule, violating it precludes the possibility of being religious. The minute you decide you’re going to follow one basic precept but not another, you automatically fall under the category of secular.
While I agree that one’s religiosity is a personal matter, and I wouldn’t normally comment, but the privacy privilege is automatically relinquished when one writes about it in a comment designed to provoke a response. Yet, at the time I did not understand why a disagreement on the meaning of the word religious could provoke such a violent reaction. I realized later that by her definition, one has to be religious to have morality. So when I said (she did not seem very religious), she understood this to be the equivalent of calling her a slut. What do you think ?
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37 Users Commented In This Post
Posted from
8-14-2008 at 09:52:12
Hmmm.. “chic” hejab picture is fugly dude! I personally get the “ahh you’re different without the hejab” sometimes but it’s not that hard to recognize me ba3dein, Niqab is an issue with such matters some girls at university used to yel3abo le3eb and yes they would let other girls in with their identification! I am not questioning their integrity bas if she’s wearing a neqab, she better stay home then and yes am narrow minded if someone wants to reply to that!
Posted from
8-14-2008 at 10:04:50
Chika
I didn’t pick a good example, but I think the chic Hijab is a good idea to allow maintaining a sense of fashion and uniqueness while still not upsetting the traditional society too much.
Posted from
8-14-2008 at 10:58:24
ok, this issue is very sensetive to me coz i figure when u decide to put on hijab u shud do it properly, no second skin clothes and ‘modern’ jeans and stuff.. do it properly!
needless to say i wont comment further lol
& on a silly note, i love the stilettos!
Posted from
8-14-2008 at 11:19:34
ProudPali
That’s what I was getting at in that a woman who wears the chic hijab with jeans and such is secular. Some parents say having their daughter wear a chic hijab is better than no hijab at all. It’s like someone who fasts during Ramadan but doesn’t do the daily prayers. They’re going to pick and choose. Feel free to comment on anything. I’m just glad I haven’t upset anyone yet :)
Posted from
8-14-2008 at 11:37:18
Jennifer Aniston looks pretty cool in the Hijab.. Balky Allah hadaha :D
Seriously now,
I didn’t get what you’re aiming at eventually? Are you with or against hijab? (let Niqab aside, it’s a whole different story).
Hijab, proper one that is, doesn’t cover parts of the “face”, so identification is not an issue here (except of one’s hair, neck, and ears are important to identify her!).
The “chic” Hejab is not an option in the first place! Shar3an, Hijab shouldn’t be “zeeneh” itself!
Respect has nothing to do with Hijab. I have waaaaaay more respect to females that are non-hijabi but with a decent dress code than those who put an extra piece of cloth on their head, and hence consider themselves mohajjabat, while their clothes are almost see-through!
Being religious, for a girl, (and this is only my personal opinion so no need to start shooting at me), is directly connected to wearing the hijab (the proper one), in addition to the other factors of course!
In the simplest way possible, what does it mean, for a Muslim female, to be religious?
It’s simply abiding by Allah’s do-s and don’t-s! So, with all due respect to everyone, not covering your “3awra” as indicated in Islam is breaking a direct, clear “do” that puts you out of the circle!
Of course the same applies for not praying, for treating ppl bad, etc etc.
Just my 2 cents… or a bit more :D
Posted from
8-14-2008 at 11:56:28
Adoosh
It took me 10 minutes to make that animation in corel photo paint), and another 10 minutes to find a photo of Jennifer looking straight ahead with her full face visible. I’m glad it didn’t turn out so bad :)
I’m agnostic so I’m not supporting Hijab for religious reasons. On the other hand I’m embarassed on seeing a guy doing cat whistles, and shouting lewd remarks in a public place at a woman they’ve never met, so sometimes I wonder. I’m also for freedom so I think the woman should make her own decision, and no one (even her parents or husband) should pressure her (guidance and advice is ok).
The ones I see usually have the nose eyes and mouth visible. I never even notice eye color, so that leaves nose size and shape, and lip color and thickness. Not enough parameters to get a positive match :)
I’m aware of sharee3a on this, and it doesn’t really concern me. From a practical standpoint, I like the chic Hijab better than the proper one because it helps me recognize the person I’m talking to!
Absolutely
Again we are in agreement. Religious by definition means following the rules of a religion.
However my final point as a none-religious person is that I know several people who claim to be religious, but lack very basic morality. I’m not talking about doing prayers or wearing hijab. Those aren’t too relevant to me. Much more basic are things like lying, cheating, backstabbing etc… I was in a taxi the other day and a preacher on the radio was saying (A muslim doesn’t lie. A muslim doesn’t cheat). I was thinking to myself, I live in a muslim country and I’ve only met 2 muslims. Where are they ?
Posted from
8-14-2008 at 12:34:06
Hani Hani Hani!
I love your posts man!
OK lemme scan your post once more..
////////////////////////////////////////
ping!
ok
Let me first clear up the Niqab issue >>> I think it is cultural, nothing to do with Islam. From what I know (and I know little!) is that 7ijab s-h-o-u-l-d show the face, hands, and feet (well you can wear shoes of course!)
Chic 7ijab >>> people might say “bid3a” or whatever… from what I understand of “bid3a” is that we do something that we assume will grant us more “7asanat” when the Prophet didn’t speak of the issue (ie we think we’re better than him). So I will not “efti” for chic 7ijab but I have to say that if she has the basics of “7ijab” then why not have a nice spice! She’s a woman and a human being and I believe it is her right to enjoy the femininity as well!
ID problems >>>> I think I have an ability to know who I am talking to despite of their 7ijab, so I cannot tell you that wearing/not wearing one makes things difficult. With the varied reactions towards this issue it means that it is a matter of a person’s communications’ capacity whether or not they are able to identify the woman they’re talking to. People wear 7ijab differently, different fabrics and styles, not to mention their gestures as tone of voice.
Face recognition >>>> the whole passport issue and the banning in places of 7ijab, I’m not a mufti to efti whether they should or shouldn’t and whether it is ok for a mo7ajjaba to put on her passport a non-7ijab photo “out of necessity”.
Morals ma morals >>>>> plz! Correlating 7ijab with manners is the “preachers’ way” of convincing people. Manners are built into a person before they know what 7ijab is. It is how you raise a child. Covering yourself doesn’t make you any more decent! If you get the best of both worlds, great! But morals and decency comes from within. Religion reinforces it (regardless of 7ijab) but it is up to YOU as a person to be decent or not!
Wearing 7ijab vs not wearing 7ijab >>>> for me, I won’t force my Mrs to wear 7ijab. It is from “qana3a”. If SHE isn’t ready to make the choice, I can’t force it! That doesn’t make her a less person or lacking morals or Islamic values. No! Lets say “statistically” it takes off points off the 100% Muslim part! But this is my opinion and I am not a mufti, and since I am not a woman I can’t t-r-u-l-y understand how it is from a woman’s perspective so I can’t answer that! But as a man I c-a-n-n-o-t treat a mo7ajaba and a non mo7ajaba differently… I can probably be a b-i-t more careful with hand shaking (though my rule is, if she doesn’t extend her hand, then don’t!)
Anyhoo I spoke a lot :D I couldn’t read any subtext here >_< so I will leave you to comment back until I let the post sink in.
Posted from
8-14-2008 at 15:48:05
There are some little muslim people who do argue the necessity of Hijab. Some don’t believe it is haram not to wear it and some do but don’t wear it. It doesn’t mean they are not religious, as people can be religious and be aware of a certain sin and still do it. A lot of muslim women struggle before they decide to put a hijab because it isnt an easy decision and once they do it, they have to stick to it for the rest of their lives, for wearing a hijab is something, and abandoning it is something else!
And while yes, it would be harded to differenciate between two people when they cover their head, it shouldn’t be a problem when you spend more time with the person. The identity is preserved and even with a head cover, there is a special identity to each one of us. You may just need some little more time.
“The minute you decide you’re going to follow one basic precept of a but not another, you automatically fall under the category of secular.”
I dont think that is correct. You would have your own vision of a certain religion (which everyone do) but that doesn’t make one secular, no?
Posted from
8-14-2008 at 16:15:59
Hani,
At the beginning of the post you stated that you are an atheist, and then at the bottom of the post you stated that you are agnostic, there is a huge difference between the two.
The jury is still out on the topic of the Hijab, I doubt that you will ever reach any thing that resembles or even remotely close resembling a consensus. I’m almost sure that a verdict will not emerge during our life time. It has been exhaustively discussed between proponents and opponents since the advent of the internet with each side sticking to their guns. I personally loathe Hijab and wrote against it in many posts, I even advised my spouse to get rid of hers but she told me that she wasn’t ready to go to hell because of my whims. I have no opinion on the Niqab because it transcends my rational level of comprehension.
Posted from
8-15-2008 at 00:06:40
Fadi and Hatem
I’ll comment on your point about there being a controversy regarding Hijab being required together first. Obviously I’m not an expert on Islam but the experts I have discussed this with agree that mainstream Muslim scholars all consider Hijab as required, and the scholars that don’t are a minority fringe element.
Of course every Muslim fringe or otherwise at a minimum believes in the absolute truth of the Quran. So when in doubt, that is what one must refer to.
As far as I know, there are three verses that are most relevant to the subject. I’ll omit the first since its point is obvious in that the most important adornment for a Muslim is that of righteousness. Here are the other two:
33:59 The Clans/Coalition (Al-Ahzab):
Oh prophet, tell your wives, daughters, and the women of the believers that they should lengthen and cover themselves with their Jilbab (cloak/over-garment). For it is better that they are recognized so that they may not be harmed. God is forgiving and merciful.
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ قُلْ لِأَزْوَاجِكَ وَبَنَاتِكَ وَنِسَاءِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِنْ جَلَابِيبِهِنَّ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ أَدْنَىٰ أَنْ يُعْرَفْنَ فَلَا يُؤْذَيْنَ ۗ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ غَفُورًا رَحِيمًا
24:31 The Light (An-Noor):
Tell the female believers to avert their gaze and guard their modesty/chastity, and to only display of their beauty that which is necessary, and to draw their Khimar (head-covering) over their chests, and not to display their beauty to anyone other than their husbands, fathers, father in law, or their sons, or their sons in law, or their brothers, or their brother’s sons, or their sister’s sons, or other women, or their male servants/employees who lack sexual drive, or boys who haven’t reached puberty (know nothing about women’s private parts). They shall not strike their feet to draw attention to their hidden beauty, and repent to god oh believers so that you may succeed.
وَقُلْ لِلْمُؤْمِنَاتِ يَغْضُضْنَ مِنْ أَبْصَارِهِنَّ وَيَحْفَظْنَ فُرُوجَهُنَّ وَلَا يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلَّا مَا ظَهَرَ مِنْهَا ۖ وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَىٰ جُيُوبِهِنَّ ۖ وَلَا يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلَّا لِبُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ آبَائِهِنَّ أَوْ آبَاءِ بُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ أَبْنَائِهِنَّ أَوْ أَبْنَاءِ بُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ إِخْوَانِهِنَّ أَوْ بَنِي إِخْوَانِهِنَّ أَوْ بَنِي أَخَوَاتِهِنَّ أَوْ نِسَائِهِنَّ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُنَّ أَوِ التَّابِعِينَ غَيْرِ أُولِي الْإِرْبَةِ مِنَ الرِّجَالِ أَوِ الطِّفْلِ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يَظْهَرُوا عَلَىٰ عَوْرَاتِ النِّسَاءِ ۖ وَلَا يَضْرِبْنَ بِأَرْجُلِهِنَّ لِيُعْلَمَ مَا يُخْفِينَ مِنْ زِينَتِهِنَّ ۚ وَتُوبُوا إِلَى اللَّهِ جَمِيعًا أَيُّهَ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ
Although there is dispute on whether khimar here is just a cover or a head-cover in this context, it is accompanied by the part that says a woman should only display of her beauty that which is necessary, so for me that tips the balance towards it being a head covering that at least extends well over the chest. I think the part about striking feet kinda precludes high heels, stilettos, or any sort of shoe designed to draw attention. You make up your mind how you want to interpret it.
Posted from
8-15-2008 at 00:28:02
KJ
This is my understanding as well
About Chic Hijab, I agree that part is debatable since it covers the parts that need not appear and yet it is colored, and has attention drawing patterns and styles, but not necessarily sexual attention. I guess it just depends on ones interpretation of guarding modesty which the aya mentions.
I’m not sure I understand what it has to do with communication capacity. Although I agree about the voice being a giveaway.
I guess I only mentioned it as an example in that there are legal grounds supporting the fact that any sort of head cover hinders recognition. This is common sense. I guess we can disagree as to how much of a hindrance it poses.
Exactly and the Quran has an aya that supports it (Al A3raf 26):
يَا بَنِي آدَمَ قَدْ أَنْزَلْنَا عَلَيْكُمْ لِبَاسًا يُوَارِي سَوْآتِكُمْ وَرِيشًا ۖ وَلِبَاسُ التَّقْوَىٰ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ مِنْ آيَاتِ اللَّهِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَذَّكَّرُونَ
I can’t help but treat them with more care. I don’t know if that’s a good thing, but that’s just the way it is. i learned the handshaking part the hard way.
Walahi I never intentionally include a subtext. I just often start out thinking of one thing and as I write it it ends up going in a whole other direction. In this case I just woke up thinking of the two incidents described in the post and what they mean
Posted from
8-15-2008 at 00:35:33
Fadi
Yes offline I’m somewhat introverted and don’t open up and get to know people very easily.
I guess it depends on which point you choose to have a separate vision of. some of them aren’t very open to interpretation. For instance I can’t seriously decide that I’m going to be a religious muslim and still eat pork, or a religious christian who has sex with someone else’s wife
Posted from
8-15-2008 at 00:54:28
Hatem
Quite right. unfortunately while I’m aware of the differences in their meaning, I have a bad habit of using them interchangeably, but since you asked, I’m going to bore you with the long version.
It’s not black and white. It is similar to what was suggested by Richard Dawkins in his God Delusion best seller: If we setup a scale of 1-7, with 1 representing a Theist who is 100% certain that God exists, and 7 representing an Atheist who is as certain God doesn’t exist as 1 is certain it does. Then 4 will be an Agnostic who is uncertain which is true. I will be a 5.5, since I am confident that God as described in Bible/Quran/Torah doesn’t exist, but I don’t preclude the possibility of some entity or entities superior to us existing in some form based at the very least on the size, and complexity of the universe, and our inability to explain it’s origins accurately. Of course, even the so called organized religions don’t explain how God came to exist.
I’m surprised you didn’t discuss hijab before the marriage. I wouldn’t go as far as loathing hijab, but I happen to like beautiful women, and I think a woman’s beauty/charm is part of her assets that can still when used within the correct limit help a woman without losing her morality.
Posted from
8-15-2008 at 02:45:48
The way i see it, you are undecided.
Posted from
8-15-2008 at 07:35:31
Hamede
if you mean uncertain about God. I think no one has sufficient information or conclusive evidence on the subject :)
Posted from
8-15-2008 at 17:23:20
In my opinion the woman hair is not something that is lustful at all.The woman breast, legs, posterior are lustful and should be covered. I never heard any one saying that he was aroused because he saw a woman hair. So what is all of this obsession with covering the hair I just don’t get it. I also believe that covering the hair for an extended period of time I’m talking about years upon years without exposing it to the sun and the fresh air is also not healthy. I’m not rendering a medical opinion here it is just common sense that the hair ought be allowed to breath. Before we were married my wife didn’t cover her head, several years after wards she decided to start wearing the head dress. In my case safety was my number one issue since I’m living in the USA and after the destruction of the twin towers I was worried about the back lash toward the women wearing the head dress and I’m still worried until now.
Posted from
8-15-2008 at 20:20:10
I must have written a jareedeh as a comment and I lost it *angered* I’ll get back to this.
Posted from
8-15-2008 at 22:07:21
Ok, let’s agree with you hatem on that hair never arouses a man, but let me ask you a question here and you’ve got to answer honestly:
If a lady whom you’re attracted to shaves her head and goes bold would you still be attracted to her the same way you used to be??!!
Posted from
8-15-2008 at 22:09:40
I meant bald
Posted from
8-15-2008 at 22:32:57
To Anonymous above,
For me the honest answer would be yes I would be attracted to her even if she shaves her head bald, as a matter of fact, and now that you mentioned it and I had come to think of it, she might even look more sexy with a clean shaven head.
Posted from
8-15-2008 at 23:10:42
Batoul
I’m so sorry. If someone mistypes the anti-spam word, they get redirected to another page which displays their comment and asks them to copy it, if you press back without copying it, you lose the comment. It’s not very well designed but it beats some of the really obscene comments I get otherwise.
Posted from
8-15-2008 at 23:20:57
Hatem
I think the hair by itself isn’t but the overall uncovered head is for me much more attractive. Add to that the fact that I subconsciously stop myself from thinking of a hijabi woman in that manner (which is the point I suppose).
There is merit to the idea that covering hair for extended periods of time isn’t healthy. In fact one of the things people getting treatment for hair-loss are told is to never cover it up. Years upon years is probably an exaggeration since she will remove it at home, and the Vitamin D deficiency can be balanced with a Vitamin Supplement pill (like Centrum).
Wow I wouldn’t know what to do if I got married and my wife decided to wear hijab a few years later. That is a tough one. If it’s not too personal, would you have married your wife if she was wearing head-dress when you met ?
I understand your point after 9-11 some Americans attacked nearly anyone who looked muslim (even Sikhs got attacked for wearing head dress). Although things aren’t like that now, you never know when another incident can happen and make all the bigots go nuts again.
Posted from
8-16-2008 at 01:55:58
Hani i have to disagree with you ,it depends on the person and his state of mind.
Posted from
8-16-2008 at 08:15:05
I guess all the points have been covered by some of the comments here. But one thing I would like to comment on is the recognition/ID factor.
If you are like me who have lived in KSA long enough to the extent that my brain was wired in a way to only check the Mo7ajabat girls in wonderland in canada, you will find it easy to differentiate each monakaba women even. The eye tell alot about the person. The way they walk, the gradient of the black color of the abaya, the length and how much it drags on the floor, the way they wrap it around their body are all factors that distinguishes each monakaba/ mo7ajaba woman.
As for passport IDs without Hijab for the mo7ajabat, I totally disagree with the regulations of some of those governments. Coz the only thing extra in the picture is the hair. Why can’t they identify and judge the person by nose/eyes, forehead, mouth or smile? as for monakabat, I understand it is kind of difficult as the only thing recognizable is the eyes, and if she is wearing contacts, good luck.
In addition to that, this means that the government officials who check the passport will see the women without their hijab which sometimes can be a serious issue for some of the women.
Posted from
8-16-2008 at 19:06:31
Maybe you’re right hatem, minding that you’re speaking about yourself…
As for me, I find bald ladies ugly repulsive and not sexy.
The hair by itself might not be a big deal to the arousal of a man (which is completely untrue and proved by the huge investments made by corporations in hair beauty products and services) but the combination of the hair with many other physical and aesthetic attributes is what constitutes the overall feminin image that captures our hearts as men, or more speicifally arouses us.
Now to be fair enough and scientific, I need at least one published article from a medical journal with a high scientific validity and reliable findings that was conducted about the disadvantages of covering the hair, as you and Hani debated..
The published article must state the disadvantages and the sample which have undergone the experiement in a clear manner…
That’s all I’m asking and I think it’s a right for everybody since you’re caliming it has disadvantages and since you’re being specific here regarding whether hijab is obligatory or not.
Posted from
8-16-2008 at 20:46:47
Hamza
Fascinating, the harder you use your senses the more finely attuned they become. Unfortunately with my senses, the only solution may be name tags :)
I don’t understand why everyone says it’s only hair that’s covered, it’s the hair, the top of the forehead, the ears, the jawline which outlines the face, the outline of the chin, the neck-line. The hair is a big deal because it’s the biggest giveaway I suppose. Ask a married man what happens when his wife changes hair color, it’s like he’s cheating on her with her!
Apparently in one US town, a judge once insisted a monaqaba remove her head-cover in court or automatically lose the case. He said he needed to see her face to be able to tell if she’s being truthful. She refused and lost the case.
Anonymous
I did some reading about it, while we naturally lose a certain amount of hair daily it’s not the hat or head cover itself that causes the hair loss, it’s decreased circulation either because the head cover is too tight or because it contributes to an accumulation of a natural substance (sebum) which normally protects, and waterproofs your skin and hair. If it accumulates, it can block the pores, and cause the follicles to die. Other factors like stress, or certain chemicals can also increase the amount of hair lost daily.
Posted from
8-25-2008 at 18:52:12
You been tagged by me.
Posted from
9-1-2008 at 13:15:28
Nice topic man.. agh I guess this is redundant since most of your posts are awesome haha.
I see your point regarding it is hard to distinguish hijabi wearing women. I found it pretty hard when I lived in Oman since they all looked the same and wore same color. But then again I am not trying to check their IDs or anything. I think it is very easy to identify hijabi women if you look closely and for the purposes you were talking about (I.D checking or something)… you show me Hijabi Jennifer and I can recognize her for sure :p
Posted from
9-1-2008 at 22:57:23
Ali
Very nice of you to say that, but it puts pressure on me!
Yes, Hijabi Jennifer was nice, but with my photo-editing skills Niqabi Jennifer looked more like Ninja Jennifer :)
Posted from
9-22-2008 at 05:28:22
just wanted to point out, we all understand hijab very very much wrong in this age, if you really need to know why hijab was ever requested you will be shocked of the reality of it, im not going to go in details but hijab was basically a means to distinguish moslem women from -lets call them “less prestigious,” back in the time where women were still being hit on in the streets at night, when women would usually go to the public baths, and it was enough for those street hitters to refrain from hitting on them… anyway, mosh gadeyyetna, i think when you said “Personally I think the way a candidate looks tells very little about their thoughts and beliefs” you kind of missed the point too, Im not sure where you are aiming at, but I suggest a great book called the Tipping Point (gosh i hope you didnt read it yet :))
as for morals and religion, i truly believe if someone poses him/her self as the only judge to their acts, it would not be sincere at all, thats why we have the law to punish those who cross obvious limits, but what about small limits like cheating and lying or getting away with crime? who can stop you? yourself? why should i trust yourself? you’re gonna argue: why should i trust your god? pretty valid, but we never have to evaluate our morals unless in real serious situations where you always swore u wouldn’t budge, but being in the action, ur gonna budge like a lot of us, at this point, in that particular self-broken point of moral vulnerability, if I budge, dont trust my god…
Posted from
9-22-2008 at 13:14:58
Mariam
Welcome.
I was aware that it was used to distinguish good Muslim women from the prostitutes and such, but Oddly enough in some Arab countries even the prostitutes take refuge behind hijab at the very least to offer some level of anonymity from all but their clients. Of course it’s not just the prostitutes.
You’ll find ordinary young women here wearing hijab along with a knee-skirt, and high heels! As a consequence I have heard this used as an argument not to wear it at all. I think (in Jordan at least) it still works quite well in the “preventing getting hit on” category, but only because quite a few men here assume a woman not wearing hijab is promiscuous.
“I think the way a candidate looks tells very little about their thoughts and beliefs” <——- It was specific to the last Jordanian election where the people running for parliament were unknown in general, and the only thing we could tell about them is what they look like and their slogan. Roba made a very good post about this complete with pictures of the candidates ads.
I don’t think wearing hijab (for those who wear it for the right reasons shall we say) is a little thing. It changes both the way people react and treat you, and to a certain extent a person’s own action since it’s a constant reminder.
We’re looking at this from different perspectives. I’m looking at the actual action. You’re looking at judging it after the fact. I don’t think your God exists, but my point was whether you think it does or not, it is your personal decision how you will act (free will). i.e. God does not interfere. It’s not a case of trusting God (I can’t even see it). It’s a case of not trusting human beings (whether they claim to be religious or not). You could argue that believing in God would affect your decisions on how to act, but from personal experience with people who claim to believe in God, I don’t think this is necessarily true.
I’ve found that many of the religious people I’ve met have been more likely to act “proper” in the presence of other people for fear of being seen as immoral, than they are to act “proper” when no one is looking. So they’re more afraid of the social consequences than they are of God. We don’t disagree on the need for law-enforcement as all of us are fallible. I was only looking at the motivations for being moral in religious vs none-religious people.
Of course the two groups will disagree on what is moral. For instance to me it is immoral to lie, murder, cheat, steal, commit adultery, but it is not immoral to wear a skirt, or to have sex without being married.
This works both ways. There are certain morals in islam that are completely repugnant to me. For instance look at this aya (Al-Baqara - 178):
(يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِصَاصُ فِي الْقَتْلَى الْحُرُّ بِالْحُرِّ وَالْعَبْدُ بِالْعَبْدِ وَالأُنثَى بِالأُنثَى فَمَنْ عُفِيَ لَهُ مِنْ أَخِيهِ شَيْءٌ فَاتِّبَاعٌ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَأَدَاءٌ إِلَيْهِ بِإِحْسَانٍ ذَلِكَ تَخْفِيفٌ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَرَحْمَةٌ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فَلَهُ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ)
Translation:O believers! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. And for him who is forgiven somewhat by his (injured) brother, prosecution according to usage (custom) and payment unto him in kindness. This is an alleviation and a mercy from your Lord. He who transgresses after this will have a painful doom.
Aside from the fact that this aya condones murdering an innocent in revenge for someone else’s murder which is bad enough. The worse part is that it mentions slavery very casually as if it’s normal. Note that muslim scholars disagree on whether the interpretation of this verse is special (khas) to this case in historical tribal customs of that time or generalized (3am) to all murders. To me it seems very generalized since it starts out with (ya ayuha al-lazeen amanu). Some hadith suggest freeing a slave as a form of penance on committing certain sins. Having the right to free a slave implies someone actually had the right to own it in the first place. No one owns human beings by my moral standards, so a moral God would have instantly forbid slavery rather than this (3atq raqaba) to wipe a certain sin nonesense!
Most of the readers of this blog (mostly a very small niche of English speaking Arabic people) seem to agree religion isn’t required for morality. Perhaps if I included my definition of morality in that question the poll results would have been different!
I haven’t read the tipping point, but it seems very interesting, I think I’ll get to it once I finish reading The God Delusion :)
Posted from
9-22-2008 at 17:23:14
as for the aya you listed, and you did not give it its full credit, why do you bother interpreting it if u dont believe in it, or the “immoral” God who said it? “so a moral God would have instantly forbid slavery rather …” i thought you said u didnt believe in God! but now our God is immoral?
i will leave it at that
إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَا عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ لِلنَّاسِ بِالْحَقِّ فَمَنِ اهْتَدَى فَلِنَفْسِهِ وَمَن ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا وَمَا أَنتَ عَلَيْهِم بِوَكِيلٍ
i have learned in my very short experience in life, that discussing religion on the net is futile, u cannot convince me, i cannot convince u, the replies get longer (it already got too long here!) and more frustrating and we end up fighting each other, and adding absolutely nothing to the argument, i have noticed a pattern i hope u see it too, when u accuse the other party of something, those who do agree and see what u see are those who ALREADY have the same beliefs, the others are there to attack back, just another fight ya3ni…
but i am “3abdon ma2moor” from where i came from :) i own nothing of this matter, so i will shift quietly away if you allow me, and say… about the personal photo, i just remembered it is not the book that discussed this, i rather saw it on a documentary, they argue that the image of the face is much stronger than a slogan, and they had a small test to prove it, they created false elections in the university, same message, same tone, one delivered posters with the persons face, the other a logo and a slogan, 60% went for the poster with the face, so if u wanna go into parliament, u must show ur face, dont care about ur hair do, nor ur ass, just the face :) the book nontheless is a good read (the tipping point)
wa domtom
Posted from
9-22-2008 at 20:47:48
What do you mean by giving full credit ?
Sorry I didn’t make my point clear. When I said this couldn’t have been written by a moral god, it wasn’t to say that your god specifically is immoral. I meant that this aya wasn’t written by any God at all. Rather a human trying to reach fellow humans at a very specific point in history. There is nothing timeless, just or divine about it in the least. About why I bother, see below.
Only if the point was to convince each other. I’m only expressing my point of view and trying to understand yours. This is also why I persist in further reading and discussing both the Quran and bible although I already know full well I will never believe they are of divine origin. I am surrounded by believers, and I need to justify my disbelief both to myself and them. It’s worth noting that many of the believers I talk to know less about their religion than I do, and trust me I don’t know very much. So it puzzles me how they can believe about something of which they know so little.
It depends on the person, but yes I understand your point about someone “preaching to the choir”. However such discussion between people who already agree are in fact the ones that are boring and futile. A genuine debate between 2 people who disagree, but can remain polite can be much more informative.
I once had a 3 hour discussion with a priest in which we both maintained politeness, and yet at one point he told me Satan is very clever and that it managed to fool me! He genuinely believed every word. At the end we shook hands and parted amicably.
One person I discussed religion with told me I should be hung upside down from a tree. A 3rd person told me my head should be cut off :)
It doesn’t bother me how long the comments get!
Be my guest
Oddly enough I would have guessed the result of that study ahead of time. What would have been more interesting is to subject different groups of people to the same campaign slogan/idea etc, but with different faces, and see which faces they picked and why.
For instance a campaign to try to get people to sponsor starving orphans in Africa found that whenever they used a girl’s face in the ad to ask for sponsors, they got an overwhelmingly greater response from donors than when they used a boy. This was because people naturally feel more sympathy for a girl than they do for a boy; indeed also more for a woman than a man. (although most wouldn’t be willing to admit it).
Posted from
9-29-2008 at 02:06:39
The discussion wouldn’t be complete without an truly alternative perspective:
http://dontcallmesheikh.blogspot.com/2008/09/syndicated-behind-veil-lives-thriving.html
Posted from
9-29-2008 at 04:35:48
Thank you Basem, I agree that article certainly is refreshing coming from an American.
Posted from
10-13-2008 at 05:05:09
Jeans and track suits to work? Shoo Had!!!!
I can’t even wear such things to school.
I don’t want to get too involved in any of these discussions but I just wanted to point out that niqabless hijab and niqab (covering face) are two different things.
Posted from
10-13-2008 at 05:12:04
lol Asoom, you should try working in IT :)
I guess we can do that because all of our customers are in other countries!
I never implied Hijab and Niqab were the same, the animation of Jennifer goes from uncovered to Hijab to Niqab consecutively.
I guess I meant to illustrate that as the face is more covered, the person becomes less recognizable. Although it seems very obvious, some people actually disputed this (10 out of 25 in the poll above).
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