On my way home Wednesday, my taxi driver was commenting on the prisoner exchange between Israel and Hezbollah. He thought it was too good to be true, and that Israel must be getting something else behind the scenes. I think the problem is that like many who celebrated the exchange, he suffers from a short-term memory.
| Hezbollah | Israel | Comment |
| Got back 200 corpses and a few prisoners including Kuntar who has been imprisoned for over 30 years |
Got back the corpses of 2 soldiers, and confirmation of their status | Aside from the fact that Kuntar is considered a hero for killing 2 policemen, a civilian, and his four year old daughter which I will leave to your judgement; it’s not the fact that Israel agreed to exchange 2 corpses for 200 that is significant here. It’s that they had 100 times as many of their enemy’s corpses available for exchange. Think about it. |
| Killed 160 Israeli soldiers in the subsequent attack when Israel retaliated after being duped into believing the 2 soldiers were kidnapped | Killed over 1000 Lebanese, destroyed bridges, airports, infrastructure, thousands of buildings, causing millions in financial losses to Lebanon. | Israel’s incursion was considered a failure even though their enemy had 6 times as many casualties, and Israel suffered no financial loss besides the cost of the military operation; negligible compared to Lebanon’s countless losses. These figures were touted as Hezbollah humiliating Israel. It scares me to think about what would have been considered an Israeli victory, ummmm 50 to 1 casualties ? |
| Short-term propaganda Victory as all sides (even the enemies of Hezbollah) joined in the celebration | Olmert appeared to his people to be caring through a photo-op hugging one of the dead soldiers wife, and press releases intended to boost morale emphasizing that the IDF never leaves it’s men behind | Both will be forgotten in a couple of weeks. |
What makes this warped analysis of such glaring figures more poignant is that it’s not the first time. Here is a list of earlier exchanges between Lebanon and Israel courtesy of the Globe & Mail. I added the right column with the ratio.
| Incident | Ratio (Arab:Israeli) |
| 2008 Most recent exchange | 100:1 |
| 2004 Israel and Hezbollah exchange an Israeli civilian and the bodies of three Israeli soldiers for 436 Arab prisoners and the bodies of 59 Lebanese fighters. | 123:1 |
| 1996 Israel frees 65 Lebanese prisoners for the bodies of two soldiers captured in fighting in Lebanon. | 32:1 |
| 1991 Israel trades 51 Lebanese prisoners for proof that one of its soldiers held in Lebanon is dead. | 51:0 |
| 1985 Israel releases 1,150 Arab prisoners, almost all of them Palestinians, in return for three soldiers captured by Lebanese guerrillas in 1982. | 383:1 |
| 1983 Israel swaps 4,600 Palestinian and Lebanese captives for six Israeli soldiers abducted Sept. 4, 1982, from their forward post in Lebanon. Most of the Arab prisoners had been rounded up during Israel’s 1982 invasion of Lebanon. | 766:1 |
| Average Cost of Arab Vs. Israeli Blood |
1 Israeli |
Is this victory ? Is it really ? I leave you with some related quotes and my thoughts on each.
The victory march will continue until the Palestinian flag flies in Jerusalem and in all of Palestine.
Yasser Arafat
>> Only if our definition of Palestine changes.
If you live long enough, you’ll see that every victory turns into a defeat.
Simone de Beauvoir
>> people remember the failures forever, and forget the victories almost instantly.
Vengeance is not the point; change is. But the trouble is that in most people’s minds the thought of victory and the thought of punishing the enemy coincide.
Barbara Deming
>> Hatred of one type or another fuels most wars, vengeance goes very well with hate.
He is senseless who would match himself against a stronger man; for he is deprived of victory and adds suffering to disgrace.
Hesiod
>> There must be so many senseless people in the world.
It is not truth that matters, but victory.
Adolf Hitler
>> Is it enough to claim victory to have it ?
If a victory is told in detail, one can no longer distinguish it from a defeat.
Jean-Paul Sartre
>> How can anyone celebrate death ?
We chose this road, and will end with martyrdom or victory.
Sheikh A. Yassin
>> For men such as Yassin, even a defeat will be victory in the after-life, but only if his idea of God is accurate. I don’t think it is.
55 Users Commented In This Post
Posted from
7-18-2008 at 11:30:34
I agree with you. The problem with Arabs is that they still live in their past, when the Islamic empire spanned continents, when Arabs were true victors. They don\’t seem to let go and accept today\’s reality. the reality that Arabs lag far behind on almost all development measures. So, I would like to beg you to let them have this one! For there is really no other taste of victory in sight.
Posted from
7-18-2008 at 11:49:37
حبيبي هاني
مع احترامي الشديد…شكلك انتا والاخ مبعوص مش عارفين شيء عن الموضوع…
اولا
الرواية الاسرائيلية تقول انو القنطار قتل طفلة
قنطار ينفي ذلك
ولكن الظاهر انكو لا سامعين بنقطار ولا سامعين بعمليتوا…يعني بس كلام لمجرد الكلام…لا عن علم ولا شيء
حبيبي
القنطار قام بعملية فدائية..خطف فيها عالم ذرة اسرائيلي..بهدف مبادلته بأسرى
طبعا انتو لا عارفين انو كان في أسرى ولا عارفين عن عالم الذرة ولا شيء…اللهم اللي سمعتوا من فلان وعلان او من جوجل…ونعم الشباب والله
أما عن قيمة القنطار…المفروض شباب في عمركم يكونوا سمعوا عن شيء اسمو جبهة المقاومة الوطنية اللبنانية, او الحزب الاشتراكي اللبناني…قنطار يمثل رمز اليسار ورمز الصمود
سمير القنطار رح يمثل الطائفة الدرزية وهو قائد تاريخي له انجازاته داخل السجون الصهيونية - اللي انتو مش سامعين عنها ولا رح تسمعوا عنها-
..
أما عن حرب تموز…فمع كل احترامي, واحترامي لفارق العمر بيني وبينكم…اذا كنتو بتقيسوا الحروب من خلال عدد القتلى ومن خلال صور الجسور المهدمة…فمع احترامي الشديد, حواركم لا يرقى لمستوى مناقشة الحرب وتداعياتها وهل هي انتصار او لأ
في اصول لمناقشة كل شيء…الواحد مابيقدر يناقش جدول الضرب مع اشخاص لا تعرف الجمع الطرح
والسلام ختام…
Posted from
7-18-2008 at 11:52:56
WOW…so earth created itself out of void, in one happy fortunate coincende, WOW..this is too good to be cartoon…
Allah eykammel el nas be3a2elha :)
Posted from
7-18-2008 at 14:03:38
Wow! Damn good post and I think the simple use of plain statistics really brings into sharp focus how absurd the situation really is.
I personally do not think that Quntar can possibly EVER be referred to as a hero as you, yourself highlighted.
Posted from
7-18-2008 at 14:18:39
I like your analysis and the stats that you used to back up your claim. I think people need to look at the bigger picture, and see what will happen next. It was just a first step, but people needed a celebration and to feel victorious at least for getting something back.
God bless all the families who have their loved ones returned to them.
Posted from
7-18-2008 at 15:04:08
Abed,
“so earth created itself out of void, in one happy fortunate coincende”
I think you know that makes you sound ignorant, which you might be, but you can’t fight the urge to blur it out, sometimes I wonder if some people unintentionally tend to “be” ignorant when they have access to a lot of sources of knowledge.
They even say “Chasing knowledge is a fools game”!!
What sounds more like a cartoon to you, that or the invisible supernatural entity that made/knows/controls everything and is present everywhere and wants all good for us (his creation) and with all that at the same time can’t manage to feed the mini planet! (because he’s so huge and lives everywhere LOL)..
Buffy the vampire slayer sounds more of a reality compared to that fantasy!
Posted from
7-18-2008 at 22:45:08
The fact is Samir Kuntar is a child murderer who smashed a 3yr old’s skull with his bare hands, and yesterday on manar tv said he doesn’t regret it, i think we should all be ashamed that this man is a hero in the Arab world, and especially every Lebanese should be ashamed and disgusted with his own country that greeted Kuntar like a hero.
Posted from
7-18-2008 at 23:14:54
I never understood politics and have rarely touched upon it in my life. My humanitarian opinion on war (any war) is that the only difference during its duration is a change in statistics and new names popping up.
Posted from
7-18-2008 at 23:18:33
anon:
long time no see buddy ! I admire you dedication to Arab/Muslim blogs, dude you are really something ;)
yes I am an ignorant, whatever you say I agree on.
Paraise be to Buffy the Vampire slayer.
seriously though, you are too good not be an Arab, if I were a president on Arab State, I’d give honor citizenship :D
Posted from
7-19-2008 at 00:10:17
Ya Hani Ya 7abebbe you keep making troubles here my friend, I am kidding!!! nice post and great analysis, but maybe I can agree with Abed Hamdan, victory is not measured by number of killed ppl, in Bader Muslims were 300 and Kofar were bout 1000 but at the end we won the battle, for Hizbullah to make Israeli army to retreat is considered a victory, at least on my opinion.
Posted from
7-19-2008 at 00:22:42
Mab3oos
Don’t worry those who want to won’t let anything as minor as a 100 to 1 casualty ratio stop them, but whatever high they get from the celebration will make the subsequent low only worse when reality sinks in if it ever does.
Abed
Since your comments were lengthy, I’ll answer separately below.
Arabista
I’m glad we’re on the same wavelength on this one.
Mona
Yes I’m happy they got their loved ones back too, but sad that almost all got them back as corpses particularly since they died with little hope of success.
Anon
Some of us no matter how smart are unwilling to question the mainstream ideas we were fed by parents and society as children. I’m glad you’re not one of them.
Wissam
I’m ashamed of those who consider him a hero.
KJ
It isn’t the politicians I am interested in, but the people who actually believe them even when every fact says otherwise.
Posted from
7-19-2008 at 00:30:47
Wasim
Be my guest. I’m glad you and he are representing the alternate side of the argument
Even if I were to believe the story of Badr, that was nearly 1.5 centuries ago. How many Badrs have we had recently my friend ?
The problem is that their actions caused the Israeli incursion to start with, and whatever battle zone Israel withdrew from they did not have before the 2 soldiers were attacked anyway. So if all things were equal, it can be called a stalemate at best. Yet all other factors are not equal, only 160 IDF soldiers were killed, and over a 1000 Lebanese, and Lebanon’s infrastructure losses were countless. That’s checkmate.
Posted from
7-19-2008 at 01:25:55
قال الشاعر مظفر النواب في قصيدة قبل أربعين سنة أو أقل قليلاً شيئاً يشبه ما نحن فيه فنطق درراً وأجاد…فقال
هل عرب أنتم..؟
والله أنا في شك من بغداد إلى جدة
هل عرب أنتم..؟!
وأراكم تمتهنون الليل على أرصفة الطرقات الموبوءة
أيام الشدة!
قتلتنا الردة.
قتلتنا أن الواحد منا يحمل في الداخل ضده
وقال أمل دنقل رحمه الله وجعل الجنة مثواه
أنك إن متَّ:
للبيت ربٌّ
وللطفل أبْ
هل يصير دمي - بين عينيك - ماءً ؟
أتنسى ردائي الملطَّخَ بالدماء..
تلبس - فوق دمائي - ثيابًا مطرَّزَةً بالقصب ؟
إنها الحربُ !
قد تثقل القلبَ ..
لكن خلفك عار العرب
لا تصالحْ ..
ولا تتوخَّ الهرب !
أنا لا أقول شيئاً هنا …مقال هذا فتح نافذة أدبية جميلة…هل ترى ما أبدت؟
Posted from
7-19-2008 at 01:33:25
Abed
Enlighten us, and excuse my responding in English as I’m more comfortable with it. Like you I don’t hold back in a debate, and I also don’t keep any hard feelings.
Perhaps he killed the child, perhaps not. Is killing an adult civilian more acceptable than killing a child ? Unfortunately yes, it seems it’s the adult man’s fault that he grew up (how dare he). to save you the trouble, the classic response to this is that Israel kills civilians too, and my response to that is that it doesn’t make it any more moral when an enemy does it. If my view is considered unrealistic and all civilian killing is acceptable in the Palestinian Israeli conflict, then let’s not insult everyone’s intelligence by calling the killers heroes only because they defied the odds. Heroism asks more than that. Regardless most of the heroes I know are dead. The cowards went home to their wife and kids, who would you prefer to be ?
Believe it or not, I was well aware of the original operation to kidnap the scientist, but it makes little difference to me what his original intent was or what he symbolized politically. What matters is what he actually did. Regarding your suggestion that reading news on the web or hearing it on TV/radio implies it’s incorrect or unreliable; I daresay unless you were part of the organization that trained and sent this man, your news sources are no more reliable than mine or Mab3oos’s. It’s just the way we interpret the news that differs.
You claim that my perspective of what makes up a victory is too inadequate to even discuss saving you the trouble of voicing your own opinion on what makes a victory. This is debate ?
I’m afraid it leaves me only the opportunity to guess at your opinion. My concept of evaluating victory in a war is based on casualties, financial losses, and geographic gains which is probably the same criteria used by any military in the world. Based on your subsequent comment i think your concept of victory agrees with Yassin’s.
So you think it’s ridiculous (or crazy) for anyone to not believe in God, or even to not believe in the biblical/Quranic/Jewish version of God. Some of the smartest people in the world believe in God, and some of the smartest people in the world don’t believe in God. So I’m afraid your argument doesn’t cut it.
The problem with the arguing that the universe must have been created by God because it couldn’t have been created by nothing falls short because the natural followup is to ask then who created God since God couldn’t have been created by the void ? Think about it.
If you really think it ridiculous what say you of these 3 scenarios:
1. A man who claims he can heal all the sick just by touching them
2. A man who claims he ascended to heaven on the back of a winged animal and then made the return trip!
3. A man who claims he caused the sea to split and a natural bridge to form across it just as his people were being chased by an army bent on killing them
I’ll leave the identification of the 3 men to you, but I’m sure you recognize them, and how silly those claims would seem if someone made them in 2008.
Posted from
7-19-2008 at 01:43:31
Moh’d, while your poetic contribution is wasted on my uneducated eyes. I appreciate it. Welcome.
Posted from
7-19-2008 at 06:35:43
Kuntar = 33 days of hell and 1287 dead Lebanese,not to mention the cluster bombs that is still killing innocent civilians today and the material damages. The country is back to the stone ages!! and yes it is a divine victory..and he’s “قائد تاريخي” ..Wow, his name will enter the history books along side Salah-dine Alayoubi, Haroun Alrashid, Khaled Bin alwalid, Amr ibn al assi even Abdul Nasser..I think he should get busy sending thank you notes to the families that paid his price instead of parading and giving interviews.If this is a national hero, we’re in deeper trouble than I thought..and again after what happened and I witnessed this past May in Beirut, nothing should surprise me..
What can I say, I wish things in Lebanon are like the cartoon posted, at least the guy has power to watch tv..
I don’t know what to say wallah, am frustrated and mad..I read your post this morning,then showed it to a couple of my friends to find some relief during the day..We’re glad that there is someone talking about the other side of the coin and not brainwashed yet..
Thank you Hani :)
Posted from
7-19-2008 at 06:40:56
HANI al statisttcs are a farce.
Posted from
7-19-2008 at 07:12:09
Very interesting post, and perhaps even a more interesting discussion it has sparked. I was actually reluctant to leave a comment until i read the very last comments :-)
Anyway here are my thoughts.
It is perhaps an indicator of our defeated spirit (as Arabs) that we are now warping our definition of victory. I agree with your statistical analysis, and i am often shocked at how much have we devalued our own blood. The same thing seems to hold for those who fire those pipes (”rockets”) at Israel from Gaza. They throw these things aimlessly in the air, and just completely ignore the consequence, retaliation, and closure they will inflect on us.
One side is not victorious unless it has crippled the other side’s military, economy, infrastructure, or caused it a very high number of causalities that forces it to surrender. By these measures, i really can’t see how the Arabs could claim victory in any of the recent wars. Temporarily shocking the enemy’s morale does not constitute a victory in the over-arching war .. maybe in one small tactical maneuver as part of the war, but not as the sole outcome of an entire war.
Anyway, your discussion with Abed somehow spun into spirituality & the origin of the universe. I have also struggled with this issue as well, i found myself needing evidence if i were to believe in anything.
However, considering today’s most acceptable scientific theory about the origin of the universe, the Big Bang Theory, we see that it attributes the start of the universe to a single point of singularity before which there was nothing. But then what happened before that ? and what happened even further before that ? We can’t go back infinitely in time, so there must be something that transcends time (in my opinion). To me, that entity is god. I can’t discuss what came before god, because i have defined that entity (during my search) as transcending time .. and that is what have lead me to believing in a divine being.
Ehh, anyway … very interesting post, and very nice thought-provoking discussion you have there.
Posted from
7-19-2008 at 08:04:23
Noura
My pleasure. It’s been 20 days since I’ve posted. I didn’t have much to say. When this issue came up, the words were coming out so fast, almost writing themselves.
Hamede
The kind of statistics you speak of have a tiny margin of error, and are aggregated and analyzed using questionable methods, and most importantly the question asked during a survey, to whom you ask it, and in what way tends to determine the results. The numbers above aren’t that kind of statistics. While there maybe error (for instance i counted dead and live bodies as 1 in all cases), they’re negligible since the figures differ so greatly. Besides, even without statistics, they’re numbers that we’ve all come to know very well simply from reading the news, and I’m not just talking about prisoner exchanges, if you compare the number of total Palestinian vs Israeli death in the past 3 decades, you will see very similar figures. It’s an overall repeating pattern. I guess the error can only be in how we interpret the pattern.
Za3tar
I’m glad we agree on the depreciating value of Arab blood. If you heard the news from a couple of days ago, a man shot several Lebanese people in the middle of Amman, and then shot himself. The people he shot were a musical band who had finished their performance. No one could possibly have a good reason for shooting them, so the guy must have been a lunatic. Anyway, the next day someone said to me: “It’s good thing he shot Arabs because no one will care, if he shot Americans all hell would break loose”. This was said with such conviction, it floored me.
It wasn’t my intention to bring the spiritual aspect into this, but I had to add Yassin’s quote because it is relevant since many of the people who willingly match themselves against a much stronger opponent are less concerned with this life than with the next.
When I speak about God, while I often use absolutes, the main theme in my thoughts on the subject is (I don’t know). In his book “The God Delusion” Dawkins mentions a scale of 1 to 7 where 1 is someone who is 100% certain of not only the existence of God but that every single word in their holy book (be it Quran, bible) is literally true. 7 is someone as certain no supreme being exists as 1 is certain it does. On that scale I’m a 5.5.
For various reasons (I will cover some in a future post), I find it very unlikely that the kind of God described in the Quran/bible exists. I should also add that I think no one can claim for certain they know the truth about God, so anyone’s guess from the most educated person to the completely illiterate is good since none of us really have sufficient information.
I lean towards there being some entity greater than us out there but not necessarily one, and not necessarily with the kind of motivation the holy books describe. Think about how big our galaxy is let alone our universe, and what a minuscule part we occupy in it. We are insignificant in the grand scale of the universe!
If such an entity exists it may consider us insects, pests, pets, a side-effect of some scientific experiment, or even a simulation. Have you seen a software called (The Sims 2) ? If we one day reach a planet with people that are still in the stone age level of technology what will they think of us with our space ships, weapons, and medicine ? We will seem like Gods to them. This is all conjecture of course, but to me it has as much chance being true as the idea that some thing out there created us for the sole purpose of worshiping it when it couldn’t possibly gain or lose anything from such an act.
Cheers.
Posted from
7-19-2008 at 16:02:03
والله يا صديقيني هاني…ردك على التعليق أكد كلامي الاول انو انتا ما عندك أي خلفية عن الصراع العربي الصهيوني..ولا عندك فكرة عن المقاومة,,ولا حتى عن الحروب بشكل عام…وهذا كان قصدي انو النقاش مالوش أي أهمية…اذا كان مقياسك للحروب أرقام, فصدقني لا يوجد كلام ممكن أنا اقوله أو غيري يقوله يقدر يوصلك أي صورة لانه - وبدون زعل- ماعندك أي فكرة عن الموضوع من الاساس
أما عن عالم الذرة..كلامك رومانسي جدا..وكأنو هذا الانسان - المسكين على قولتك- يا حرام صحي من النوم لقي نفسوا داخل أرض دخل عليها من خلال مجزرة ارتكبت بحق شعب..وياحرام ماكان يشتغل في تطوير أسلحة قتلت الملايين
فعلا..ذنبوا الوحيد انو صار كبير بالعمر…مش مجرم أبدا…لا شو هالحكي..والله احنا المجرمين
الظاهر انك ماعندك علم انو هذا الشخص المدني على قولت هو مثل باقي سكان المستعمرات الصهيوينة, جندي مدرب وجاهزر للدخول في أي حرب من خلال الانضمام لصفوف قوات الاحتياط, وهذا شيء يفتخر فيه الشعب الصهيوني , شعب الله المختار
على العموم…مثل ماقلت…عدم نقاشي بالموضوع هو لعدم وجدو خلفية عن الموضوع من الاساس….
والخبر السعيد لكل شريف بالعالم…المقاومة لا تنتظر اذن منكم…وين مافي ظلم..رح يجوا ناس دافعوا عن المظلوم…ورح يكون في نفس الوقت ناس عايشين لهدف الاكل والشرب والتكاثر مالهاش دخل بالموضوع, كغثاء السيل..ربما أسوا
المقاومة ليس لها دين ولا طائفة, المقاومة في مفهومها هي ناس لديها قلب وأحساس, تهتز لرؤية الظلم في أي مكان كان في العالم..والحمدلله هذي الطائفة موجودة في كل مكان وزمان, ولولاها لخربت الدنيا
وانا ماعندي اجندا ضدك..بالعكس لازلت اعتبرك صديقي..الشيء الوحيد الذي تغير هو اني صرت على علم اليقين انك ماعندك أي خلفية سياسية ولا معرفة عن الصراع العربي والاسرائيلي, وصدقني هذا شيء عادي, مش مطلوب من الجميع يكون عندهم رأي في كل المواضيع بالدنيا
حصل خير…أنا أسف اني دخلت في مثل هذا النقاش…صدقني رح أحاول أمتنع عنوا
ومثل ماقال السيد نصرالله في أخر خطاب, هي مزارع شبعا وكفر شوبا والغجر محتلة, خلي الحميع يشارك بكل الطرق, خلي المفاوضات تجيب نتيجة …ولا حرام نخرج الجيش الصهيوني المسكين البريء اللي كل جريمة انو وجد نفسوا ماسك سلاح بقتل فلاحين أبرياء ؟؟
وعن الناس اللي ماتت بالحرب…الله يرحمهم…بس للأسف في أعداد أكثر رح تموت لانو النضال في هذي الايام صار مقصور على حزب الله…احنا مش فاضيين, ورانا مسابقات رقص شرقي وكأسس أمم أوروبا…
السلام ختام..وعن أنا بهرب من النقاشات, لاني صدقا زهقت
Posted from
7-19-2008 at 16:04:35
أما عن موضوع الله عزوجل..القرأن مليء بالامثلة والاجوبة
صدقنيني ونصيحة شخصية, ارجع للقرأن الكريم وحاول تقرأ كل كلمة فيه بهدوء وتأني, ورح تلاقي أجوبة مرضية
ان في ذلك لأيات لقوم يعقلون
وفي أية أخرى…وضرب لنا مثلا ونسي خلقه…
الله يهدينا ويهدي الجميع..رأي الشخصي اللي شاف الرسالة المحمدية وخسرها, هو خسر الدنيا والاخرة…وهذا شيء محزن
Posted from
7-19-2008 at 19:05:19
Abed
This type of comment is only used as an insult (not a good preamble), and doesn’t add anything to the debate. Since you think the debate is of no importance whatsoever. No hard feelings, but I won’t bother debating you.
Posted from
7-19-2008 at 21:17:14
Then please delete all my comments above, to end it. I shouldn’t have replied to begin with.
Posted from
7-19-2008 at 21:21:52
hey Hani I am sorry if this sounded as an insult, I didn’t mean to, just delete my comments and forget everything I said.
Posted from
7-19-2008 at 21:57:10
Abed
I have spoken to my father. He is 40 years older than either of us. His reaction was identical to yours, that there is far more at stake here than a simple numeric comparison, he considered it (a point of honor). He was a little less restrained than you since he was speaking to his own son. In any case, I take back my last comment, you were right, it isn’t possible to debate this point.
Peace
Posted from
7-20-2008 at 00:18:40
For Arabs death is a victory, for Israelis it’s a loss
Posted from
7-20-2008 at 04:49:18
Hareega
I hear you loud and clear. A patient once told my dad she had 4 sons, and she lost 3 of them to the IDF, and that she was working on making sure the 4th one will follow them.
Posted from
7-20-2008 at 07:14:00
Hani, if you find any of my previous comments offensive, then please do delete all of them, I don’t wanna lose a friend over a discussion that will make no difference, and we both know it.
Listen my friend, you have to know that this post of yours is a contribution to the efforts exerted to sabotage the reputation of the resistance because it was the only strategic power to stop the Israeli Spartan Monster that is empowered with the most sophisticated on earth.
Regarding the numbers, please remember that ISRAEL KILLED THOSE PEOPLE, under American government blessing, to give birth to the “new middle east”. I’m not making this up, they clearly specified it.
Also note that All Arab countries except Syria stood FOR Israel by condemning Hezbollah and SUPPORTING ISRAEL financially and politically.
Why ?? Why not a single Arab country tried to free the prisoners or at least used their political relations with US to pressure on Israel ?? Why ??
Ask yourself these questions, and if you find another better easier way to free the prisoners, then please do suggest it and carry on by actually implementing it !
Israel claimed that Al Kuntar killed that 4 yrs old girl, and Kuntar said he didn’t. Give me one logical reason on earth that made you believe the Israeli version of the story ?? Those criminals, how do you believe them ?? And from our knowledge of those arrogant war criminals, we know they go nuts whenever someone humiliate their pride, and no wonder if they started shooting like maniacs and killed everybody there.
Wars are never measured by the number of deaths, never ever. If this is the case, then how come the US lost the war in Vietnam for example ?? How come those who called themselves the Crusades withdraw from our lands after 200 years of imperialism ?? is it because we killed more ?? actually they were stronger, but sometimes you can’t afford occupation, especially in the face of civil armed militia, such as Hezbollah, and Iraqi resistance.
Of course we hate death and blood, but tell me if there’s anyway to stop those monsters from raping our women and kidnapping our children ?? We went to Oslo, Geneva, and so many places for peace talks, we imprisoned our children and delivered them to Israel because they were “Wanted”, what is the result ?? they built more settlements and killed more people, about the same result.
When Hezbollah did what they did, it’s because they had no choice, and if we’re not going to support them then the least we can do is NOT to contribute to the planned saboteur of their reputation.
Posted from
7-20-2008 at 18:32:40
Dear Abed
I see where your coming from. You’re arguing a victory of honor a victory of dignity and morale (i.e. Hezbollah managed to attack Israel and Israel failed in its primary objective of destroying Hezbollah in return). I’m arguing logic, math, and cold numbers (Israel achieved it’s secondary objective very well, namely destroying large parts of Lebanon just as important to the morale of the people, and simultaneously dividing Lebanon further as a result of the destruction).
You asked if I could find a better way of getting the prisoners back. No I can’t, but I know this one from a logical standpoint is a total loss. Hezbollah got a handful of live prisoners and a couple of hundred dead ones in exchange for an attack they precipitated that caused more than a thousand new death. Many of those People didn’t want to be involved in the fighting to begin with.
First, There is no comparing the State of Israel to the crusades or Vietnam. Israel has been around for 60 years now, it isn’t some foreign army that is out on a campaign somewhere on the other side of the planet. Both Israelis and Palestinians are fighting on their home turf (not home in the original just ownership sense but in the it’s a fact of life accept it sense).
The second point is that there were no bombers, helicopter gunships, rockets, and missiles during the crusades. A numeric advantage, high morale, and a relentless fighting spirit was all it took to slowly wear the invaders down. That made such morale victories as the one you’re arguing for more imperative. In modern warfare numeric superiority is only useful in close quarters, and where there’s no artillery and air support available to the enemy.
The price for your morale/dignity victory is just too high in this day and age, and moreover the blood being spent is often that of the unwilling.
Resistance is only viable when there is a chance of success, even a small one. This is a suicide mission. This is why I added the Yassin quote in the end. Again when it comes to the spiritual aspect, we won’t be able to meet halfway because this time you are defending tradition, and I’m looking for forensic proof of an invisible God.
It would take much more than such a disagreement to jeopardize this (blogger to blogger) friendship, and in almost all cases where I lost a friend it was their choice. I just don’t hold that kinda grudge :)
I wouldn’t dream of deleting any of your comments as this post wouldn’t be fair and balanced. About the resistance, don’t worry, most of the very small demographic that reads this niche English blog isn’t really very interested in resistance, and the ones that are wouldn’t be dissuaded by my position.
Posted from
7-21-2008 at 07:28:00
Sorry but I have read all my comments, where on earth did I mention “honor, moral,dignity” ?? you just made that up. Or is it an answer you give to anybody who argue with this theory of yours ??? Typical !
or is it something those of you who live abroad think they learn ?? sorry, but claiming to speak math and logic doesn’t necessarily mean it is math and logic. We’re talking about war, and clear understanding of the big picture is essential. Again, wars have never, and will never be measured with numbers of deaths/casualties. Read about the second world wars if you want a hint. It’s the ending and the goals that counts, and trust me life isn’t nice as the west trying to tell you, life is
F*****g hard and in wars you don’t have a choice. “You don’t have a choice”
I’m talking Logic, math, history, politics and strategy, and you should very well analyze my answer before replying with romantic words such as dignity and morals,
F**k dignity and morals, in wars there is no dignity and morals, and yes life is
F*****g hard. It isn’t a dumb honor/moral battle I’m talking about.
Now, I will go on repeating my answer because you literally missed the important parts.
The crusades are different ?? well to your information they came to stay and they brought so many inhabitants, I bit you met some of them in Jerusalem, yes they were brought here with the crusades. The claimed that land. Using different weapons in wars doesn’t mean their war was clean, it was dirty, it’s always dirty, and they used tricks to win many battles. Go read it, it’s pretty interesting actually, and it will give you a hint that things now are way better than then !
MOST IMPORTANT <=== ISRAEL attacked the Lebanese NOT HEZBOLLAH. If you think that Israel wouldn’t have attacked Lebanese anyway, and will let everybody live happily ever after, then I suggest you follow the peace process during the 90s. Israel ended up assassinating all the leaders that carried out those peace talks and occupying more lands.
If you need a background of the Israeli ideology and plans, I suggest you read “The Fateful Triangle: the United States, Israel, and the Palestinians by Noam Chomsky”. This will give you a better insight about the Israeli structured plan that is totally independent of two rotten kidnapped soldiers. Israeli is just sticking to “the plan”. Nothing is hidden, they state it clearly.
Sorry, but it’s too dreamy to think that Israel will leave the area to live happily ever after if they gone for peace or if Hezbollah didn’t kidnap two rotten soldiers (war criminals), because simply this is not the purpose of Israel and this is not the purpose US is supporting Israel.
Hezbollah did a proactive measure by kidnapping the soldiers, and it’s much more than freeing soldiers. It created a shy tiny balance in the power distribution in the area. The fact that a small militia like Hezbollah prevented Israel from invading Lebanon -(which was the plan, declared by Bush to create what WAS known as the new middle east, I’m not being conspiracy theorist here, they just said plainly on TV for everyone with ears to hear!) - changed so many things in the area.
it was often jokingly said that US will have dinner in Syria after breakfast in Iraq, well surprise this is not true, not anymore. First because US is losing in Iraq (yes I know about the death toll, or you’re going to measure it with number of deaths again?) and Hezbollah bashed the Spartan “image” of Israel, the image of which the US counted on to make a permanent change in the area, similar to the one created upon the collapse of the Ottomani empire one hundred years ago.
And again, before contributing the sabotage of Hezbollah’s reputation, I suggest you come up with some plan (since you look very concerned it seems) to free the 11,000 prisoners in Israel and to do something to stop the brutal torture against them. And Israel kidnap people anyway, not only those “wanted”. So many women and children there.
ساقتبس كلام عزمي بشارة:
مفهوم النكبة أوسع من مجرد استقلال دولة اسرائيل, مفهوم النكبة يشمل جميع الدول العربية, التي تعيش حالة من الفقر والاستعمار مع انها من اغنى الدول في العالم
yes, it’s a consequence of AL Nakba that forced you to go to Canada while we have the richest resources on earth. So how should we deal with it ?? by sabotaging any attempt to balance the power with Israel ? I don’t think so.
(Note: 3 Obscene words removed by admin)
Posted from
7-21-2008 at 07:36:05
Hani,
You completely managed to depressed me with this reality check!
Posted from
7-21-2008 at 11:46:45
very informative and useful post…and the discussion between you and Abed too.. ;)
Posted from
7-21-2008 at 17:23:13
Abed
Kindly avoid words like f**k here per policy. Thank you for your comment.
Posted from
7-21-2008 at 17:26:00
Madas
It was not my intention to depress, only to point out the obvious. Welcome.
Posted from
7-21-2008 at 17:46:06
Hamza
Glad you liked it, yes it would have been incomplete without Abed presenting the other side. I am very grateful.
Sorry, silly akismet plugin decided your comment is spam, and it went to moderation
Posted from
7-21-2008 at 18:55:41
the debate is still on !!
I wonder how hizb will get our other detainees from Syria or if Mr. Hassan has any plans to do so ?? or those don’t count at all..it seems not all prisoners enjoy the same status as kuntar??
Posted from
7-21-2008 at 21:45:48
Noura:
if it took kidnapping two soldiers to free prisoners from Israel,
then it takes a world war to free a prisoner from Arab country prison. FYI, All human rights organizations are forbidden to visit Saudi prisons. Saudi Arabia that claims to be the Sunni leaders (how shameful I’m made to feel by being a Sunni nowadays!).
What did Arab countries offered Hezbollah ?? Nothing, they fought it politically, economically, and intellectually. We have our Sunni Imams calling Hezbollah infidels because they pee setting not standing, how about that ??
Only Syria and Iran offered help to Hezbollah, and if I were Hezbollah I will take it, specially if the whole world and half my population are against me. Syria is not predictable, and has a black history. They go after their interest (like all Arab countries) and they can betray Hezbollah over night. Who is supporting Hezbollah again ?? Nobody. Only Iran so far.
Again, if anybody of you guys have any good solution to our problems, please do suggest. I’d love to have any solution that better protect us. We are all under occupation, UNDERSTAND it. We’ve always been. It’s been more than hundred years now. We can’t selectively solve our problems, and we can’t choose happy endings, specially when we don’t have a choice.
Instead of condeming Israel for their war crimes, go after Hezbollah weapons, and when the next invasion takes place, go to United Nations and tell them that this time Hezbollah didn’t actually kidnap any soldier and Saddam Hussain didn’t have any nukes, and we love to have a peaceful life. They will sure listen.
Noura, my dear sister, the middle east has been messed up 200 yrs before the collapse of the ottomanis, and it’s 100 times more messed up now upon the discovery of the OIL mines in the middle east. Israel should be there to ensure an everlasting conflict. Hezbollah will fade away, Hamas will fade away, but the crisis will still there.
Maybe 5 years from now Iran will become the next Iraq, and maybe Hezb will fade away, but what I’m sure of, the crisis will never go away. Hezbollah didn’t kill those 1200 people, it’s Israel using sophisticated illegal American weapons and this is the truth.
Don’t blind yourself with hatred to Hezbollah, and don’t make it your main cause. Hezbollah isn’t eternal and believe me they’re not the ones responsible for the mess in the area. Lebanon is a small country that’s very poor like its neighbours, it will never be a strong luxurous country, it’s never allowed to. Because it’s neighbours with Israel. Compare the economical status of countries next to Israel, be it a friend of Israel or “enemy” all the same. Will always be the same.
And if there’s a better way to solve the problems, suggest it. Disarming Hezbollah ? ok , then what after ??? arming the Lebanese army? aha, and after that ?? Living Happily ever after ?? sorry, never gonna happen, not with the current situation, not even if you wipe Hezbollah, hamas,iran, and syria out of existence, never gonna happen, not the in the near future, not even in the far one.
Posted from
7-21-2008 at 22:05:56
Abed
I’m aware the crusaders tried to colonize, and had fortresses in several locations, the point is they didn’t flourish.
Yes of course, the US is losing in Iraq. Anyone can see that. Now that’s a good comparison to Vietnam since Iraqis are fighting a foreign invading army on their home turf.
In any case, you seem to be entirely against any attempts at making peace with Israel and insist they all ended up badly.
Yet the reality is that Nasser with all his podium hogging talk about pan Arabism and the crowd pleaser (unrealistic talk of exterminating the State of Israel for all time) only made things worse for us. Whereas it was Sadat (whom most Arabs called a traitor) that had the courage to make peace in such a hostile atmosphere.
It was his policy that eventually got Egypt back Sinai (and the rest of the lands it lost in nasser’s war) without shedding a single drop of blood, and the poor man ended up getting shot dead by some idiot for his heroism.
If Syria follows a similar policy and distances itself from Iran, it will get back the Golan as well. This is where your logic and mine differs. You only see one way: fight and die, period.
We need men like Sadat now, men like Carter, not men like Sadam, Sharon, Nasrallah, Nasser, Bush, Bin-Laden and Blair, thank you very much.
Posted from
7-22-2008 at 06:59:26
Abed
So as far as you are concerned, it is not about numbers, it is not about honor or dignity. You keep repeating that Hezbollah provoking Israel to attack Lebanon is a strategy aimed at releasing all prisoners. Israel as you mentioned has an unlimited supply of prisoners in Palestinian civilians, and an unlimited supply of bombing victims in Lebanese civilians (yes you are right they don’t just attack Hezbollah) and Palestinians (civilians or otherwise). It doesn’t matter how many soldiers Hezbollah kills, scores more Lebanese can die, and scores more Palestinians can be imprisoned to make Hezbollah’s victorious “death bargain”. The insignificant 100+ to 1 ratio you insist is irrelevant to your logic. No matter how many times you use the F-word (3 so far), this reality doesn’t change.
Posted from
7-22-2008 at 07:39:05
Hani:
Again with the ratios ?? All the comments above didn’t count at all did they ?? *sigh*
So you really think it\’s AL Sadat heroic peace that \”Freed\” Sinai, not his
F*** betrayal to Syrian troops !!!!
Well sorry, but Al sadat is a traitor who betrayed the Syrian army in the war, they both were actually freeing both Sinai and Al Jolan, and they were able to go far as to enter Tel Aviv, but Al Sadat stopped, and thanks to him, all Israeli troops left Egypt and went to fight the Syrians.
But if you think we need more Sadats, then rest assured we have plenty of Sadat governing many countries. Hosni Mubarak is one very advanced Sadat, I hope you just take a look at the heaven his people live in, the heaven that\’s a role model for all Arab countries. I bet it\’s the kind of heaven you guys want. Where you either starve or escape.
I\’m not against peace process, I\’m just saying that this Israeli government, army, and people, will never allow such a process, and you can go review all the peace talks that took place, all in vain, and actually we were better without them. The damage done by Oslo talks is irredeemable.
My point is not that Hezbollah provoke Israel, NO this is NOT my point ! my point is that Israel is provoked by itself, and is doing its purpose and job in the middle east by using the weapons in the way they are supposed to be used. Be it Hezbollah, Nasser, or whoever. They will be used anyway. Hezbollah is just another excuse.
So those numbers don\’t count in wars, because what matters is the results, and THERE IS NO CHOICE. We don\’t like those numbers, but what choice do we have ? committing suicide maybe ??
yes it’s dreamy to live in an exotic paradise and dream they will give you something if you went for peace. They won\’t. We tried. We have oil, peace is not an option.
Have a nice day.
Posted from
7-22-2008 at 08:22:45
Dear Hani,
I formally request you delete all my comments on this post, except for this one. Thanks.
Posted from
7-22-2008 at 18:34:30
Dear Abed,
It took me over an hour (Safary 523 is that good), but you will find your privacy has now been respected to the maximum extent possible while respecting the great amount of time and effort expended by both of us and other readers to read and write these comments. I have also enabled anonymous posting to simplify the matter in the future.
All the best.
(Note: changes reverted since Abed changed his mind and decided to continue posting more comments)
Posted from
7-22-2008 at 19:15:04
fair enough. altough it’s a right preserved if you are using blogger.com ..
Posted from
7-22-2008 at 19:59:23
Its by no means not victory but its better than nothing …
right?
Posted from
7-22-2008 at 20:28:32
Abed
If you look back about three comments up you will find, you decided to use repetition. The fact is once we resort to repetition, it means most of the main argument for both sides have already been covered. You don’t see me telling you ‘again with the resistance’ dear sir :)
Calm down, using the f word a 4th time doesn’t validate your argument
About Sadat, stopping an attack that’s not going very well during a battle is a tactical decision. Egyptian troops actually advanced only so far as their SAM missiles would cover them facing the formidable IAF (just compare the plane and tank losses to find out how formidable). In fact Jordan made a similar decision at one point, I think it was the right decision when you know you’ve lost the battle. This may not be considered heroic but it certainly isn’t treason either. It’s common sense. Even if the story about reaching Tel Aviv had been true, The US would have intervened long before, and more importantly Israel went on nuclear alert during this war. Enough said.
I was admiring Sadat’s willingness to press for such an unpopular peace, not anything else. In that regards Hosni has maintained the peace with Israel. That part I approve of. If you are asking me about his internal policy, I haven’t a clue, but can they be worse than any other Arab leader ?
There’s always a choice, to start with fighting only the battles we can win, because fighting the ones we can’t is exactly that, suicide. It’s a waste of life which even a heathen such as myself considers a gift.
Yet somehow Saudi Arabia, one of the most oil rich Arab countries in the region and the world has had peace. Still they spend ridiculous amounts of their wealth on arms as do most other countries in the middle east (including Israel). Can you imagine how much better life would be if that money went where it is really needed ?
You may say Saudi got peace because they had America to protect them. What if Iraq continued to be an ally of America ? Would we be in this mess today ? You are so quick to point out Israel when one of our own brothers attacked a fellow Arab country, I wonder why Saddam wasn’t called a traitor ? What he did, and the repercussions did more damage to Arabs than anything in the past 25 years.
That oil, that wealth, it’s not going to last very long. It’s not just peace with Israel we need to work on Abed, it’s peace with each other. Divided we fall.
Posted from
7-22-2008 at 20:34:26
Sabeur
Israel won’t make the same mistake twice, they won’t send the tanks and soldiers to be slaughtered again, next time they’ll just send the bombers assured of their air superiority, the fighters will dig in, and the Lebanese people will be front and center presenting victim after victim. Any more victories like that, and well the old Beirut will be back, and I don’t mean the good ol’ Beirut.
Posted from
7-22-2008 at 20:49:19
Abed
If you want more information about Israel’s nuclear capability. Federation of American Scientists (FAS) is the best civilian source:
Doctrine: Just so you know how early they had them.
Overview: Too many sites for anyone to hit them in a first strike, and more importantly, even if they did, Israel still has its Dolphin German Submarines with cruise missiles ready to retaliate.
Posted from
7-23-2008 at 07:14:03
I didn’t know the F-word was that bad you know ;)
Again Hani, your lack of background problem. If you really think AL Sadat and Jordan took that decision because they were losing, then you don’t know the details of 6th of October war, and the discussion stops here.
Again, if you think “peace” the brave decision we should take, then you don’t know the details of the peace process that took place.
Posted from
7-23-2008 at 07:27:06
Abed,
I read your note to me earlier today as am following the ongoing debate througout the day. Very interesting..
I have told you before that “MY PROBLEM” with hizb and its leader is what’s happening internally in Lebanon..My dislike for hizb turned to hate the day they pointed their guns on us ..Plain and simple..To you it’s alright because we should all bow to their divine power “taw3an” or “Kurhan” as u put it yourself somewhere else..
As long as you think that you are right and any other opinion is not only wrong but “jahl”..that’s sad..
and to say:
“اذا كنتو بتقيسوا الحروب من خلال عدد القتلى ومن خلال صور الجسور المهدمة ” this is very offensive to me ..How do we measure it then?? Easy for you when watching the events and counting from your comfort living room in another country..YES, I get emotional and YES am deeply wounded because I lived the misery, and know the taste of losing everything..it never goes away..
Kuntar is no hero..he earned a bachelors degree, was married and enjoying conjugal visits in jail (a piece of gossip)..we’ll see how he’s going to earn his living..w Allah yesterna min sharro..
Posted from
7-23-2008 at 12:44:48
Noura:
1. My dislike for hizb turned to hate the day they pointed their guns on us ..Plain and simple
A: I told you my opinion then, there were casualties from “both” sides..and assuming Hezb was the only “armed” party is not just. Sorry but how other non militant people got armed all of a sudden, and they got snipers. There were many killed from Hezb itself, so both sides to be blamed, and I don’t know the source and reason of those who fought Hezb. I know one thing, they weren’t civilians.
2.To you it’s alright because we should all bow to their divine power “taw3an” or “Kurhan” as u put it yourself somewhere else..
A: Interesting, I remember saying that somewhere. I don’t think Hezb power is divine that’s first. Second I meant by taw3an or karhan those who’s sole job is to disarm Hezb. I don’t trust them espcially ja3ja3 and jonblat.
3. اذا كنتو بتقيسوا الحروب من خلال عدد القتلى ومن خلال صور الجسور المهدمة ” this is very offensive to me ..How do we measure it then?? Easy for you when watching the events and counting from your comfort living room in another country..YES, I get emotional and YES am deeply wounded because I lived the misery, and know the taste of losing everything..it never goes away..
A: Noura, everyone with conscience is hurt and wounded for the casualties ! I know it’s extremely harder for you, I do understand this, and it’s perfectly normal to be emotional, and who doesn’t get emotional when he is involved ! I said that statement discussing the usage of casualties numbers in deciding a victory which is the topic hani is arguing. I think it’s not the proper measure. Nobody wants any casualty or death, and I’m not damawi or fond of blood, I don’t even want Israelis dead except for those who attack us days and nights.
4. As long as you think that you are right and any other opinion is not only wrong but “jahl”..that’s sad..
A: I have discussions days and nights when I find a powerful argument to argue with, I know I’m young and naiive, and believe I almost stopped talking. I’ll make sure to keep my mouth shut for a long time, perhaps forever.
You want to hear my opinion, plain and simple ??
I think if we wipe Syria out of existence, and if we bash the skull of Nasrallah, and if we found the real killers of al shaheed rafeeq al 7ariri and executed them, and if we wipe Iran out of existence, and if we also got rid of those bastard Palestinian refugees everywhere, and if we got read of all shiites in the world,<== if all this happen, in my opinion, nothing will change, because in my opinion this is not the source of the problem. Perhaps it contributed but it’s effect isn’t the major effect. It’s the West interest in the oil in the middle east, which is why they keep supporting Israel, to ensure an ongoing state of trouble in the area.
I also think the middle east will undergo more bloody wars, more severe than the previous one, and nobody will be safe. I’m deeply sad and frustrated, but this is my personal opinion and I hope it turns out to be wrong. I hope that.
Hani & Noura:
sorry if comments offended you somehow at any point, I didn’t mean that , and I consider both of you friends, and I asked Hani to remove my comments but he refused, because no matter what anyone say, somebody will get offended
Posted from
7-23-2008 at 12:51:41
1.
just to further clarify my point, I didn’t mean the dead were not civilians, many civilians got killed, but there were people other than Hezb who were armed and trained.