have the courage to answer in a logical way instead of just turning roles

Not sure what you mean by turning roles, but logical answers require logical questions. Faith isn’t about logic, more like philosophy. There is no right answer, because of insufficient information. I didn’t really understand what you mean about the speed of light.

For you Hani, as well I see you loosing the point and trying to redirect the speech, toward me, no, have the courage to answer in a logical way instead of just turning roles, I always discuss with you the E=MC2 theory, and I proof to you that if mass reached light speed then the time effect will be 0, and the mass will be infinite, keep this theory in mind, and you will know you and all other bloggers and posters, that Allah is faster that light speed, and then there is no impact for time over him, and he is infinite.

I meant that internally with our compass that guide’s us in this world for the unknown, and we trust to this, and scientifically not explainable, it guide us that there is Allah

Wow, an internal compass ? Sorry, I didn’t come with one of those !

you will never ask yourself about things that doesn’t exist

Again, I disagree. If I wasn’t born with millions of people aorund me beleiving in God’s existence, I wouldn’t question it. Before you say that is the point, there are also millions of people who don’t beleive in its existence.

Show some of the product, curiosity will get people to seek the whole product

Ok, so if this was a demo, my point remains, it wasn’t very well executed for a supreme being. Why demo so many products which have the same purpose.

If we saw Allah then there is no meaning of worshiping him because we will worship him because we are afraid and we know that he will punish us immediately

Actually, many preachers (Muslims and Christians) make speeches about how we should do just that. Fear God and his punishment, and that this should motivate us to faith and taqwa, and if God were to show itself, we wouldn’t have been killing ourselves over who’s right all these years. So it has been cowardly of it not to do so.

and i agree with bakkouz SCIENTOLOGY FTW that thing rocks ! although i think they were protoplasm special edition uber bombs bakkouz
why is this post still alive and i still check it ??! !

Show some of the product, curiosity will get people to seek the whole product, or buy to know what is it, in Software world you get demos to buy the full version, in real live Allah showed us some signs of his mighty to search for him and believe in him without seeing him. If we saw Allah then there is no meaning of worshiping him because we will worship him because we are afraid and we know that he will punish us immediately, but uncover him will give the people the chance to show their real internals.

Premise: X only exists if one or more people care about it.
Then: Once expectant parents cease to care for their unborn fetus , they may abort it since it ceases to exist, but this violates both Islam and Christianity.

and what the heck is a hoammatohootoehhle ?

I read your article, and I searched to get you answers to your question, does Allah exist? I belive of that, but I needed to get you scientifically answers, I searched, found over the net some silly stories about a student lived in the west and was discussing with his prof. Another disbeliever who was asking another questions, but I found the answer between all these articles and others, Yes, Allah does exists, and you know this deep inside, else you didn’t search for him, you want to know him better, but you don’t know how, you are seeking faith inside, but again you have contradicting thoughts, I don’t want to argue this, but I want to get you an example:

Why we don’t search for hoammatohootoehhle in anywhere in the globe? and we don’t ask our self’s about? You know why? Because it doesn’t exist, nobody is asking for that doesn’t exist, always we asked and search for the existings. This is my reply to you.

See Pascal lived in the 1600’s and as far as he and everyone around him was concerned, there was only 1 true religion Christianity (although several variations of it).

If God really needs to be worshiped, then it will want to be worshiped a certain way, otherwise there wouldn’t have been any need for messengers, books, talking burning bushes, and what have you. Just beleivers or none-beleivers. Hence if you are worshiping it incorrectly you will go to hell anyway. So if that is the assumption, any way you put it most people on earth are going to hell.

Muslims say Islam is God’s religion. Christian’s say the same. etc… So what religion does God follow ? They can’t all be right since their rituals and traditions differ. It can’t be that silly.

So I submit, if I make the following assumptions:
A1. God, Heaven, and Hell Exist
A2. God is good

Then
God cannot need or require to be worshipped because a good God would not want most of its creations to end up in hell.

Living with A1 and A2, one can make their own system of moral behavior. Really, its not that hard to tell right from wrong, I don’t need some guy with a collar, or a turban to tell me.

If A1, and A2 are right, then I go to heaven, if they are wrong then I doubt there will be any afterlife, but at least I wouldn’t have lived my life kissing carpets and kneeling to statues, but was instead true to myself.

As you said, God (if he exists) must have a phD in marketing :P.

All your points are valid points that I’ve asked myself. Although I can not agree or disagree with you as all of us lack the proof to the existence of god or not, I made peace with myself after reading about Pascal’s Wager. (try wiking it ;) )

It basically boils down to this:
1- If god exists and you worship him—-> Heaven
2- if god exists and you don’t worship him—->hell
3- if god does not exist and you don’t worship him —>good, you lived your life and didn’t waste it
4- if god does not exist and you worship him—>nothing…other than the fact that you wasted a couple of minutes doing prayers which might have been good in making you feel better or in raising spirituality or morale

So choices 1,3,4 are + while 2 is -. don’t you think you’d be safe believing in God even if he does not exist? (remember, neither we have the proof that God exists nor we have the one that proves that he does not exist).

have a nice day

I did not mean the metaphor to be offensive, and you pointed that part out, so I could remove it, I appreciate your help.

I know what you mean about some of the Friday Khutbas. I especially don’t like it when the guy starts crying. When my mom is visiting, she tries to make me listen to Amr Khaled on Fridays, I find his speeches entertaining and informative, although I only listen for educational purposes. Oh and to keep Mama happy :)

Thing is Hani I can’t not agree here, a lot of people are just considering the afterlife but from my understanding of Islam I have to work for this life and the next. Roaming around to focus only on the latter is ridiculous and frowned upon among puritans - but there are so many muftis now demeaning every single person in the Friday prayers and make us feel like shit at how unholy and worthless we have become. Which I think is wrong. This is why I like the khutbas in Syria because (at least the mosque I go to) the khateeb tells us on the life of the Prophet and some nice stories for us to take morals from. He doesn’t demean us and make us feel worthless.

The states of religions now is horrible because they’re being constantly attacked, and the reaction of the religious people is just like a cornered mouse: They get irrational, violent and the bigot starts.

Speaking of Eve, I forgot one of the important points.

One of the reasons all religions vilify sex is that it is instant gratification. It lessens the effect of the carrot on a stick (heaven) that is supposed to drive us. Bugs Bunny would tie a carrot to a stick, and dangle it in front of the horse he is riding in an attempt to motivate it to keep chasing the carrot. The horse can thus be directed in any direction, and never realizes that they’re never going to get the carrot. Who holds the stick ? The pope, a mufti, anyone claiming to be an authority on religion. Guess who’s the horse ?

There are definitely divisions now between all three faiths but those are for the most part constructs of the occupation regime and it’s main funder. The attempts at dividing Muslim and Christian Palestinians for example is so blatant and disgusting. You have the Israeli regime making it easier for Palestinian Christians to acquire the various permits that they need to open business, build homes, add on to their homes, etc., meanwhile the IOF puts every obstacle possible in the path of Palestinian Muslims that want to do the same.

In the end, the IOF allow the Christians a bit more economic freedom (tiny bit more) so then Muslims resent the Christians, etc. Classic attempt at divide and conquer, but, I don’t think it’s working.

CSS, Its certainly not the only reason, but it’s one of them. I’m not gonna deny it because it happens to agree with US foreign policy. I just pointed out how it stands as a barrier to the problem solving itself over time through inter-breeding. You can also look at it another way. If there was no Judaism, there wouldn’t have been any promised land, and the jews may not have come here, but that’s just me and my strange ideas.

–Hi Hani. Don’t do that! Only Americans and Israelis that are trying to lie to the world about how insufferable the Palestinian Muslims are and how incompatible Judaism (and Christianity) are to Islam say that there is no peace in the Holy Land because of religion. There is no peace in the Holy Land because the U.S. wants to dominate the region by appointing Israel as their trustworthy pit bull in the region. And, there is also no peace in the Holy Land because Israel has stolen Palestinian land and created a Palestinian diaspora that can only dream of going home. It doesn’t have anything to do with religion.

Abraham is thought to have existed at around 11 thousand years ago,

Qwaider, I think you and Bam-bam made my point for me. My source says 4000, yours says 11,000, Bam-Bam’s says 6000. the point is we have no idea, and neither do any of our combined sources. I am skeptical the Abraham described in any of them existed.

So if such a simple fact is in dispute, why not all the rest of it ? It is ancient history. Even the history of the last 50 years has many contradictions, and inaccuracies, can you imagine how many sources the information from 4000+ years had to go through to reach us, and how many hidden agendas ?

I am simply surprised to see people who are skeptical about what is written in a newspaper printed yesterday, believe verbatim every word from a book several thousands years old.

The beautiful thing about religion for me is that there are no experts, we are all human, and have an equal knowledge as to the nature of God and how the universe was created (that is almost none).

and thanks seriously for actually holding a discussion and i apologize if i was a bit too confrontational … just wanted to give u a rzn why thats all

I will try my best to put in as many answers as I can remember, because I myself went into numerous such discussions with atheists and believers alike.

A firm believer doesn’t occur to him that such a possibility exists. When you bring to him or her this information, they almost always zone out for a few seconds. In these few seconds, they go through the OMG what if Hani is right phase. I myself had a lot of those in the past few years.

I mean, let’s be frank here. Speaking strictly in terms of actions (3ibadah) and the time it takes to perform them, you can sum up the time it takes to make wudu2 5 times, pray as many + sunnah if needed, read some Quran when person has time, etc. How many hours a day, a week, a month, a year? That’s many hours my friend. Imagine what you could be doing (or if you’re lazy, not doing) during all those hours.

Of course, that aside, imagine if all these prayers are unanswered and have nothing to do with anything. I mean let’s face it, believers and non-believers all have the same life issues: Money and food shortages and kids and bosses and a million other things. So now you’re telling them all this supernatural support isn’t present?

Oh my!

All this goes through the person’s head in that second. And it is up to that person to either embrace it or refute it, and if refuted it would be either out of stubbornness and fear or because that person genuinely believes that there is more to this life than its current coat of paint.

You’d also have those people who get aggressive verbally and assault you with accusations that would render them faithless.

I guess the sect of people I belong to is those who believe because they can actually see things working in one way or another. Whether this is because it is the actual truth or because we have been brainwashed irrecoverably, I myself really don’t understand why there shouldn’t be a God.

Note I am not talking about religion. Just the God part.

As I was saying, I can’t not see why there shouldn’t be a God. As for the who created God part, I won’t give you the same “you shouldn’t ask this” response. I will just say I honestly don’t know. My mind cannot grasp something more. And I have the choice to tell myself that our limited mind is what created God for us to justify our existence, or I could say there IS a God but my current state of mind and human evolution I cannot fully understand God but faith in God is enough for me (yes I do believe in both creation AND evolution).

So in the end, I tell everyone, live and let live. Why argue about who is right? Who is wrong? Why so adamant on converting everyone into a believer or atheist or scientologist or whatnotologist? Will it make me of a hire social standing? Will demeaning and the vanquishing of other people justify your existence?

The only thing that justifies your existence is your soul (if you believe in the soul) or the “you” that you define yourself in. That’s it. Just accept others as you’d like them to accept you, live and let live.

I mean, really, how boring will it be if everyone was the same! Just accept the differences and live people. You’re making life shorter killing each other over nonsense.

Right?

I mean, the Quran says “lasta 3alayhom bi mosayter”… which I have read the interpretation as being addressed to the Prophet, as God telling him that you can only advice but you cannot force.

Enough preaching your beliefs people. They’re for you to keep. The world is difficult to maintain as it is and there are people who are dying from hunger for us to be too concerned now on whose God is the right one.

no one is better than the other and having a religion or not doesn’t not exclusively make a person better or worse rated in terms of morals, ethics and personalities

Agreed, and when I gave my examples, I was trying to illustrate just that. Morality is independant of religion at least the way human beings observe religions.

And in case this was all a big fat lie and there is nothing but worm food

I had this discussion with some of the religious people I know. It went soemthing like, what if you were just kissing the carpet 5 times a day for nothing ? What if you were sitting there praying and no one is listening ? What if you were fasting and not getting any thawab ? What if this is a lie several thousand years old were all the evidence is gone and only the hearsay remains? Shudder !

What is important for me as KJ is that I should be at peace with myself and the people around me.

KJ, you’re doing a good job with that. I have yet to see you being hostile.

Yes it is stated in the Quran and I believe that. But one of the first things they teach us in Islam is that we shouldn’t be the ones who pass judgement. I believe there is also a hadith that says that whoever says to another he is a kafir then he becomes a kafir himself/herself. The Quran states who is what and the consequences but this isn’t for us to start accusing people.

Sorry if it sounded like I didn’t believe in it. I should have been more clear.

As for the peace part, it is a PR indeed if you look at it that way. Peace is a very subjective term like love and hate so I don’t think I qualify to be a mufti and preach on what peace is and how it should be propagated. What is important for me as KJ is that I should be at peace with myself and the people around me.

It’s good to see the history that led you to become the atheist you are now. I don’t blame you at all and I am not one to judge either. We’re born and raised in different circumstances and we ended up at the opposite end of the spectrum, but what I know that no one is better than the other and having a religion or not doesn’t not exclusively make a person better or worse rated in terms of morals, ethics and personalities.

I especially don’t like it when a fellow Muslim passes judgement on someone else and says “omg you kafir” or “you are definitely going to hell!”. I mean, (inset obscenities) ya (insert more), who are you to judge? No one knows where they end up (heaven or hell) so how can you be so sure on where you’d end up?! They SO piss me off.

And in case this was all a big fat lie and there is nothing but worm food - I look on the bright side of things. You atheists have nothing to worry about and I lived my life the way I wanted to. So no harm either way!

PS: People of all religions should just stop waging war because it is nonsense really. I find it bewildering when religions teach peace and every follower is anything but that

Qwaider, feel free to correct any inaccuracies. The dates aren’t mine, they’re encyclopedia Encarta’s, but I don’t think the exact number makes much difference to the point here.

I think I’ve written enough to show that I’m certainly not trying to be fashionable.

Chika, I really am a happy person, pessimism doesn’t imply depression anymore than piety implies morality. Fear not, Commenting or disagreeing is not Haram ;)

Note to hani
This post has so many contradicting factually inaccuracies to the point that It will take even longer to comment on it!

For example. Earth is 4.5 billion years old (true) Humans (in their current form) have been around for the last 20 to 40 thousand years. Abraham is thought to have existed at around 11 thousand years ago, Ishmael his son with him came the domestication of the horse. Moses Ibrahim’s great great great grandson existed 5700 years ago
Now what happened for people before and around? Well, there were plenty of profits to fill these gaps. Before Ibrahim there was Noah, Idris and other prophets.

The rules is, no message, no punishment.

Anyway, that’s just one point.

I think I asked most of these questions as a child, the most nagging one being: “how can there be enough room in heaven for everyone who’s died since the year dot?” This lent much credence to the notion of reincarnation, which in turn has been most vehemently condemned by those who are most religious in my circle.

It’s also worth noting within the Christian faith the number traumatised by Catholic convent educations; both my mom and best friend have since turned atheist due to the harsh punishments meted out by the nuns.

Sometimes too much of a good thing can go bad, I suppose.